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Investment Round Table from Business Times Singapore.
PARTICIPANTS
Moderator:
Anthony Rowley, Tokyo correspondent for The Business Times.
Panellists:
Marc Faber, an investment adviser and publisher of the Gloom, Boom
and Doom Report.
J Mark Mobius, president of Templeton Emerging Markets Fund Inc, and
director and executive vice-president of Templeton Worldwide Inc.
Ethan Harris, managing director and chief US economist at Lehman Brothers,
New York.
Ernest Kepper: A former official of the International Finance Corporation
and Wall Street investment banker who now heads an Asian financial consultancy.
William Thomson, Chairman of Private Capital Limited, Hong Kong and
adviser to Axiom Alternative Funds, London
OVERVIEW
Since the sub-prime mortgage crisis burst upon the US a year ago, there have
been market rallies and claims that the worst is over, only to be followed
by fresh plunges in values and sentiment. Are we near the bottom now, or just
at the start of a long, slow meltdown? Our experts take the latter view.
Where can investors find a safe haven in this sea of trouble and uncertainty?
Gold is still a good refuge, suggests one expert, who expects the price go
as high as $2,500 an ounce.
More fundamentally, our experts see developing markets in Asia and beyond
as the promised land that will emerge relatively strong from a potentially
massive destruction of wealth in the old world. The needs of these emerging
markets for food and natural resources will be strong, so farmland and plantations
could be good investments.
Anthony: I'm delighted to welcome such a strong panel - a mark of how
seriously you gentlemen view the current global financial and economic situation.
It's especially pleasing to welcome back some old friends - Marc Faber, Mark
Mobius, Ethan Harris and William Thomson.
Anthony: Marc, let's start with you. Are we looking at a financial
system "avalanche" rather than a technical bear market, in equities and bonds?
Marc: I believe that the secular bull market in equities and bonds,
which lasted from 1981/82 to anywhere between 2000 and 2007 has come to an
end and that a water torture bear market has begun. If an enormous quantity
of money is printed by central banks equities may avoid a severe bear market
of say 40% to 50% but a trading range would still follow and no net gains -
certainly not in real terms - would be achieved.
Mark: This may become the case in the US where there is a big risk
of a "meltdown" of the financial system, bought on by a lack of confidence.
However, emerging markets, equities have corrected more due to poor market
sentiment and contagion from what is happening in the US, rather than any major
deterioration in fundamentals.
Ernest: I say this is an 'avalanche.' I am anticipating a fall in equity
prices in the range of 40 to 50% relative to the peak--- much more severe than
the 25% fall which we see in a recession.. Two main reasons are that major
economies other than the US will have severe interruptions in growth and that
the consumer - especially US. consumers who most likely have gone further into
debt than their credit cards would allow by making a home equity loan or taking
on the second mortgage will most likely be under pressure to repay. It appears
that the U.S. consumer's debt burdened situation will put him in a "no way
out" financial quandary with a fall in home prices, fall in equity prices,
rising inflation and a reduction in jobs. I expect this scenario to unfold
over the next 12 to 18 months.
Bill: In no way can this be seen as a normal bear market. This is undoubtedly
the worst financial crisis in the developed world since the 1930s. The only
period remotely similar was the bear market of 1973-75, which was itself a
part of the extended 1966-82 bear market in US shares. That bear market was
driven in part by a 13 fold increase in oil prices from 1972 to 1980. This
time we have had a 14 fold increase in oil prices from the $10 low of 1999.
Last time we had massive inflation of 20 percent per annum. That has not yet
arrived but may well be in the pipeline.
However, in my view, the situation is far worse this time since the US financial
system is extraordinarily stretched and stressed. Last time we only had the
minor bankruptcies of Franklin National Bank and Continental Bank to contend
with. Then there were no derivatives. This time, they amount to more than 10
times world GDP and a greater multiple of bank capital. Within that total the
most toxic ones are those unlisted, opaque, over the counter variety amounting
to over $50 trillion, again multiples of US bank capital.
The revolution in market finance that began with the deregulation of the 1980s
may be about to eat its young, as we have seen with the putative bailouts of
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; if nationalization goes ahead the US visible national
debt increases by $5 trillion and is effectively double. The US would no longer
qualify to join the Euro!
The US budget deficit could be on the verge of exploding upwards. Including
war costs, it is already over 4 percent of GDP. The economic slowdown and Presidential
candidate Obama's plans for healthcare, whist noble and justifiable, even after
tax increases, could send the deficit north of $1 trillion or 7 percent of
GDP by 2010.
Anthony: What do you think the total "wealth loss" might be as a result
of recent crises (in terms of falls in market cap, sub-prime losses and other
losses by banks and investment banks, derivatives market losses in general)?
Does anyone really know - or is the whole thing too opaque to estimate?
Ethan: Estimating the losses of financial institutions is extremely
difficult, but something in the $500 bn to $1 trillion range makes sense. The
good news is that much of that has already been revealed at the major money
centre institutions and they have been able to recapitalize. It is also important
to not double count--when a mortgage defaults the loss is the difference between
the loan size and what is recovered, and we should not add to that the individual
pieces at each stage of ownership of the loan. To put the losses in perspective,
the total value of assets owned by US households is $72 bn and the net worth
of US households is $56 billion. Moreover, many of the losses are borne outside
the US. Thus the second round losses--the drop in the stock and housing market--is
larger and a bigger threat to global growth.
Bill: When Chou En-Lai was asked by Henry Kissinger if he thought the
French Revolution had been a success he responded 'it's too soon to tell'.
That applies to the current situation. But we could be looking at $6 trillion
in mark downs of housing wealth, $3-4 trillion in stock market losses if we
get a 25-35 percent mark down in the market - and it could be worse - and then
we have the losses of the banking system. So we are talking about possibly
$10 trillion as compared with a GDP of $13 trillion. Proportionally, I would
look for the UK to suffer similarly. It's not chicken feed!
Marc: Right from the start my estimate of the losses was about USD
1 trillion in the US alone. However, if we add the losses from a decline in
housing wealth and stock market wealth the losses are a multiple of that.
Ernest: Overall, the fallout could easily be in the many trillions
of dollars. No-one really knows (especially central banks and finance ministries)
-- but if we quickly add some basic financial areas where there are already
are losses to those we can expect it is easily 2-3 trillion.
The two US mortgage backers losses are in the trillions -- the loss to the
10 million privately owned real estate homeowners is also in the trillions.
When you estimate in the range of a US$ 250 billion loss in each of the following
sectors -- equities, consumer debt instruments (such as car loans, credit cards
and student loans which have also been repackaged and sold as asset-backed
securities), corporate bonds, specialized insurance companies which guaranteed
bonds and mortgages to collateral mortgage instruments, the loss in tax revenue
to states from real estate taxes, the bankruptcy of a major broker whose revenue
has been based on charging fees rather than earning income from addressing
and dealing with credit risk, the bankruptcy on one or more hedge funds, construction
company losses and bankruptcies of and derivatives, it will be a multi trillion
dollar loss.
Anthony: Do you think that inflation or deflation is the greatest threat
facing the global economy - i.e. commodity price inflation versus the collapse
in asset values (real estate and stocks etc).
Marc: We are in the midst of an unprecedented credit growth slowdown
and this will hit all asset classes - one after the other, as liquidity tightens
up and as de-leveraging becomes the order of the day. First home prices came
down, then financial stocks and now commodities, material and energy stocks,
and art prices will follow. Bonds will eventually also tumble. In the meantime
it is likely that consumer price inflation will accelerate.
Mark: In view of aggressive monetary expansion by the US, the risk
of inflation is probably greater. In emerging markets, another big risk is
also the abandonment of the market economy philosophy and a cessation of privatization
of state owned companies.
Bill: This is the great debate. The losses are deflationary but the
monetary and fiscal policies are hugely inflationary. So far the secondary
effects of wage inflation are the dogs that have not barked yet, but the unions
are clearly getting restive in Europe and the pressures are so intense on US
wage earners that it surely must just be a matter of time before they try and
restore some of their lost incomes.
Ultimately, governments never repay their debts in real terms. I look for
the US to try and inflate its way out of its mess whilst, all the time, denying
it is happening and quoting the manipulated inflation data. But one only needs
to look at the private estimates of M3 growth to see that it has been growing
at 18 percent per annum, double what it was when they stopped publishing the
information and double the worst time in the stagflationary 1970s.
Ernest: Probably inflation initially. But as the avalanche builds and
recession hits oil-importing countries, the combination of a severe US recession
and a global slowdown will shift the focus away from inflation to the slipping
demand for real goods which will lead to a reduction in prices when supply
exceeds demand. There will be downward pressure on labour markets, rising unemployment,
while at the same time commodity prices fall in accordance with reduced demand.
Equity market prices are presumably based on value, while commodity market
prices are the result of supply and demand.
As the Fed approaches a zero interest rate policy, its ability to have an
impact on the economy will be reduced. This is because the Fed has been playing
a bigger role in financial stability issues rather than growth issues.
Anthony: How safe is US government debt as an investment now, given
the stress of financing financial system bail-outs?
Ethan: It is absurd to think that US government debt is not "safe." The
potential liabilities the government is taking on are small relative to the
size of government debt and even in a worst case scenario, debt as a share
of GDP is unlikely to approach the highs of the US 15 years ago or in other
major economies such as Japan and Italy. Moreover, the Fed earned its lesson
from the 1970s and is very unlikely to allow a sustained inflation acceleration.
The big challenge for US debt is not new: it is the huge surge in costs as
the baby boom generation retires. In terms of the dollar, it is also wrong
to focus on US government liabilities. What matters to the dollar is the overall
borrowing requirement of the economy -- that is the current account deficit.
The current account deficit is improving as exports surge and imports stagnate.
The deficit is still too big, but at least it is moving in the right direction.
Looking ahead, further improvement is likely as Americans rediscover the virtues
of conventional saving, rather than relying on asset price appreciation to
accumulate wealth.
Marc Faber: A big risk of meltdown of the (US) financial system.
Mark Mobius: A water-torture bear market has begun.
Ernest Kepper I say this is an avalanche.
William Thomson: In no way can this be seen as a normal bear market.
Ethan Harris: It is absurd to think that US government debt is not
safe.
Marc: Since the government can print money US debt is 100% safe. What
is, however, not safe is the US dollar. So, investors may eventually get their
money back in a currency - the US dollar - which will hardly be worth anything.
Mark: Looking at the U.S. fundamentals, the perceived safety of U.S.
government debt is under stress which is why central bankers have been diversifying
their reserves. Of course in a general loss of confidence then such debt could
become risky.
Bill: You will be repaid in US dollars with less purchasing power than
when you subscribed. Whilst this crisis continues and the management of the
White House and the Fed remain unchanged, the US dollar is a poor bet and a
worse investment.
Ernest: While US. Treasuries have not been particularly rewarding buys,
mainly because of excessive debt loads, it is default swaps and derivative
products plus counter-party risk management instruments and arrangements on
the market by foreign countries that raise concern.
Anthony: What is the safest thing to "hold onto" in this avalanche
- gold, other commodities, cash etc?
Marc: For the next three months the US dollar should be fine. On weakness
physical gold should be bought as it is the only "honest" currency. I would
avoid industrial commodities. Farmland and plantations should also be relatively
attractive.
Mark: I would still maintain that the best strategy would be to have
a diversified portfolio between equities, bonds, commodities and cash. We continue
to find fundamentally stock companies trading at attractive prices as a result
of the global market correction.
Ethan: Investors should remain conservative in this environment. Even
commodities are not a panacea. For example, the surge in oil prices in the
face of a clear weakening in oil demand, suggests part of the run-up this year
is unsustainable.
Bill: Gold, in my opinion, is the asset of last resort. It is no one
else's liability and has shown its value in crises over the millennia. That
situation remains unchanged. It is still cheap relative to oil on a historical
basis and is only 40 percent of its all time high on an inflation adjusted
basis. New supplies coming onto the markets are constrained by high costs and
a lack of mining skills after a generation when no new graduates entered the
sector.
Given the global geopolitical tensions added to the banking crisis, gold remains
a superb insurance policy. Before the present cycle exhausts itself I would
not be surprised to see gold reach all time highs on an inflation adjusted
basis i.e., $2500. Silver is also interesting here since it is a minor precious
metal with expanding industrial applications. On an inflation adjusted basis
it is even cheaper than gold. There are an ever expanding range of instruments
to tap the commodity space with ETFs and ETNs - long and short. There are also
natural resource funds of hedge funds.
Anthony: Amongst equities and bonds, what (if anything) is there to
go for now? Emerging markets versus advanced markets?
Marc: I think for the next three months the US will continue to outperform
emerging markets - as it has done already this year - and this not because
the US market went up but because it went down less than emerging markets.
I also think that Japan will outperform the US and other markets. High yielding
equities in Asia, including Singapore REITs, should be okay but up-side potential
is limited.
Mark: There's always something to buy. While global growth is slowing
down and inflation has been increasing, emerging markets are still expected
to grow at a much faster rate than developed markets. They, thus, representing
an investment opportunity. Moreover, 'frontier' markets [those at an earlier
stage of development than established 'emerging' markets] are also looking
interesting.
Bill: I believe we are entering a new phase in the global economy,
one with increased government regulation, controls and spending. The old Thatcher-Reagan
supply side revolution is likely to take a breather and a return to modified
Keynesian policies is a possibility.
This is driven by the increased scepticism in developed economies about globalization,
largely because the rewards have not been adequately distributed. This accords
with the likelihood that the 36 year cycle in US Presidential elections will
probably make the Democrats the leading party of government in the coming years
with all that means for interference in the economy - and inflation.
The extent to which the growing scepticism of globalization in developed economies
affects the future growth of emerging markets cannot be determined at this
time. At the margins growth may be reduced slightly but the fundamental factors
changing the shape of the global economy are too strong to be derailed. Emerging
markets remain a field of great opportunity, especially after recent declines
in countries like China, India and Vietnam. Others with essential commodities
are exciting. Powered by Chinese and Indian investment, Africa could have a
renaissance. Those with financial imbalances like those in Eastern Europe should
be avoided.
KEY POINTS
This is the worst financial crisis since the 1930s and equity prices have
more room to fall.
All told, the total losses could run into trillions of dollars.
High inflation is likely to persist, at least for some months.
Investors can seek refuge in precious metals and selected emerging markets.
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